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12:54 am
August 27, 2011
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QuoteHi guys,
Just wondering if this has been discussed "south of the border" at all?
I'm Canadian and as of today (July 1st) the new Canadian Anti-Spam Leglislation (or CASL for short) is now enforced; this is just about THE strictest laws in the world regarding "Commercial Electronic Messages".
Contrary to the name, CASL isn't just about "spam" and it isn't just about email. The definition of a "commercial electronic message" includes email, sms, types of social media posts and more.
Fines go as high as $1 million - $10 million per instance!
Now, I'm sure many of you are saying, "Boy I'm glad I'm not Canadian..." you better make sure you don't have any Canadians on your mailing list. CASL applies to email sent from, to or within Canada.
As far as enforcement goes - apparently the United States will uphold this law.
I've been studying it quite extensively as part of my work (I work for a digital marketing agency and we've been helping local businesses get compliant and hosted two CASL webinars last month) - so I'm happy to address any questions people might have...but I'm not a lawyer so I cannot give any legal advice.
You can also check out the website put up by the Canadian government about CASL
Hey Mike,
Yeah, sounds strict. There have been many of these legal events over the years and at the end of the day it never seems to mean all that much. It also doesn't really effect anyone using a service like Aweber because there is an audit trail for every confirmed subscriber. But thanks for raising the issue. Always good to hear about developments on the email marketing front.
Having trouble with your marketing? Wish you could have an experienced direct-to-fan marketing expert look over your actual campaigns, music, or content and offer feedback? Or perhaps you’re just looking for a little one-on-one assistance so you can ask questions that pertain to your specific goals and get a second, more experienced, perspective? Click here to book a session with me now.
7:36 pm
Thanks Mike for the info and the link.
As a Canadian, I feel concerned, so I consulted the link & general info - but not the legal text per se. The most important thing I retain, is that in using Aweber to constitute a mailing list from respondents who chose to buy or download for free a track, the message has to be clear about how the email address would be used, and provide a choice for the respondent for staying or not on the list, independently of his/her choice to get the track. It probably can be done by a field one could tick on the email giving the link to the download. That may already be provided for. In any case, it takes more than just a choice to eventually opt out of the subscription.
Whatever the method, the object is to remove any ambiguity in the "audit trail for every confirmed subscriber" that John referred to. It's only good netiquette, in my humble opinion.
To illustrate what would be very likely be illegal: I signed a petition once, from a change.org or similar site, but the sponsor of that petition used it to put me on the list of the Liberal Party of Canada. Pretty sleazy, right...
An irony, Mike, that you may have heard about, I heard over the radio that journalists were complaining that they started receiving over the course of the last couple of weeks a whole bunch of emails & tweets from organizations that they didn't even know they were subscribed to (mind you, they typically subscribe to everything that moves), the object being to get their explicit consent to "stay" on the mailing list. So the law gives an opportunity for a new wave of promo.
5:19 pm
August 27, 2011
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Hi Phil,
Yeah - the law did give people an excuse to send email in a bid to gain "express consent" prior to July 1st. I know I received a fair amount of them at the 11th hour.
For the most part, the law is there to protect consumers from douche bags. I had a musician who harvested my email a few years ago when I was the stage manager at a charity event for my son's school; he never asked me if I wanted to receive his newsletter and yet...mysteriously I'm on it. That could be an infraction right there.
As with any law, there is a lot of grey area with CASL. At the end of the day, as long as you are transparent about what you're doing with the email and give an option for them to leave you should be okay.
However, just remember that the burden of proof is on you to show that this stuff was in place; especially in the case of someone given you verbal consent to contact them - unless you have a recording proving the contact gave you permission, then it's your word vs. theirs.
5:27 pm
August 27, 2011
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John Oszajca said
Hey Mike,Yeah, sounds strict. There have been many of these legal events over the years and at the end of the day it never seems to mean all that much. It also doesn't really effect anyone using a service like Aweber because there is an audit trail for every confirmed subscriber. But thanks for raising the issue. Always good to hear about developments on the email marketing front.
Having Aweber won't protect you on its own. Yes, there's an audit trail and yes there's an unsubscribe mechanism - but if people are added to multiple lists that are related (from the list owner point of view) but not what the contact requested...there could still be problems.
So if you're aggressively moving contacts onto multiple lists via automation, and they attempt to unsubscribe and continue to receive email from a different list/segment...there is potential for trouble.
Again, the law is mainly targeting the douche bags that are deliberating pushing things and not for those of us who are trying to do the right thing.
It's also not a bad idea for marketers to revisit their list practices, the forms they use etc. (especially if they have a complex set of rules and lists in play) to make sure everything is as it should be. I think that this is actually a positive in terms of the law coming into force, it gives us a reason to review and make updates where necessary - most of which should benefit us as well as the contacts we email.
10:22 pm
June 7, 2011
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While it technically won't prevent you all on it's own, it essentially will. Aweber does not allow you to manually move people from one list to another or add a person to multiple lists. All actions must be taken by the user. if you try and do it yourself a confirmation message goes out. So that audit trail will exist and in my opinion protect you.
I have seen a lot of "the sky is falling for email marketing" legislation come out over the years. It doesn't ever really change much. Spam will always be very present because most of the really gross stuff is coming from overseas and thee is little you can do about it from a legislative point of view. It keeps big companies in line. But so long as you are not doing anything sketchy, using a reputable company, and following the rules, you should be fine. But needless to say, you should not be moving people from one list to another, unrelated one. But as mentioned, Aweber won't allow you to do it anyway.
Having trouble with your marketing? Wish you could have an experienced direct-to-fan marketing expert look over your actual campaigns, music, or content and offer feedback? Or perhaps you’re just looking for a little one-on-one assistance so you can ask questions that pertain to your specific goals and get a second, more experienced, perspective? Click here to book a session with me now.
2:54 am
Hello again John & Mike,
Not to belabor the point, but just to make it clearer than in my original message, I take it from the first two items on this page :
http://fightspam.gc.ca/eic/sit.....00287.html what follows:
Someone wants to download your song from a squeeze page & he/she must provide an email address to which send the link or the download in an attachment.
But all that person asked for was a download. To put that address on an email list, you need to get that person's consent to be on it, or alternatively the opportunity to say no thanks. It's different than saying, to download, your address will be kept on a mailing list but you can unsubscribe anytime thereafter (the minute after if you wish).
The difference does seem pretty trivial. But the issue becomes clearer when transposed to telephone numbers - Say you give your number to some store because you want them to answer an enquiry. They answer, but then they also ring you up with automated promotional phone calls. Then you have to call back to say no more. Imagine how annoying that would be. And if your phone # got on that list, what other list may it find itself on ?
As a corollary, I imagine, is not to keep lists of those that just wanted a download, or a list of those that chose to unsubscribe further down the road... unless these lists are safely kept and never used so that no one would know. But then even keep them ? Mind you, that is just my own deduction - it seems implicit, but... ??? 
So this, I gather from the info going around, is what this legislation is about - no one can be put on any list without explicit consent. Providing your email address for a service is not enough. And no new lists upstream by compiling, sharing, mining other lists, etc.
I don't think it should change much for the MMM approach. Just a little extra explicit step to take. It might also mean not keeping any lists other than explicitly "subscribed clients". And protecting those lists from any illicit mining etc. It might also mean ending up with shorter lists.
10:35 am
August 27, 2011
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100% agreed Phil. CASL basically spells out that you need to be upfront with your intentions and be 100% transparent. If you're offering something for free - but intend to send follow up emails of a promotional nature - that needs to be stated up front.
Many people play hard and fast with these rules - mainly the douche bags. There are people who think nothing of using school email lists to start sending political or fund raising emails because they think it's for a "good cause" and they're not selling anything. CASL basically means that on a fundamental level - even if you have my address that doesn't mean you're able to do whatever you feel like with it.
I didn't want this to come across as an "The End of Email Marketing", but was curious to see if anyone else on this forum and outside of Canada has heard about CASL. Seeing as how it's mainly Phil and I (two Canadians) talking here...looks like I got my answer!
11:04 pm
June 7, 2011
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Once more, I've seen a lot of this stiff come and go over the years. It's not unlike the laws requiring affiliates to state in all instances that they are sharing affiliate links. The language and enforcement of such things is much more vague than the interpretation and in practice these laws exist to protect users from the gross abuses of email marketing. But if you are ethically gathering email addresses and using a reputable email management service, you really don't have anything to worry about in my opinion. Furthermore, you have three years before this even arguably becomes an issue.
Here you can read an article that brings the doomsdayers down to earth on the matter:
http://digital.kazooky.com/cas.....-business/
And here you can read Aweber's own advice which really doesn't suggest that anything more than confirming that you have the opt-in recorded on all of your .ca addresses:
http://www.aweber.com/blog/ema.....w-casl.htm
There are steps you can take and certainly adding a disclaimer that people will receive additional emails is something you can do. But making too big of a statement of it may hurt conversions. I really don't think this needs to be worried about so long as one is using common sense, providing an unsubscribe link, and tracking the fact that people clicked a confirmation link.
But you're certainly free to take any precautions you feel are prudent.
Having trouble with your marketing? Wish you could have an experienced direct-to-fan marketing expert look over your actual campaigns, music, or content and offer feedback? Or perhaps you’re just looking for a little one-on-one assistance so you can ask questions that pertain to your specific goals and get a second, more experienced, perspective? Click here to book a session with me now.
4:03 am
June 9, 2011
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Hey guys,
I would think you would still be cool by using Aweber.
There are really only two unsubscribe scenarios. The first is that a person clicks the unsubscribe link in your message. When they get onto Aweber's server, they are shown their subscriber details, including every list that their email address is on. Then they have the option of selecting which list(s) they want to be unsubscribed from. They can unsubscribe to all, or just one if they want.
The other scenario is that they email you and say something lovely like, "Stop sending me emails, ass hat." In which case you click the unsubscribe link for them.
In either case, you are protected, assuming you actually unsubscribe someone who calls you an ass hat, err... I mean, asks to be taken off your list.
If someone still receives email from you on a different email address, that's not really your fault, if they confirmed the subscription too. You really have no way of knowing whether email address A belongs to the same guy with email address B. Only he knows that and confirmed both subscriptions.
Point being is that people really can unsubscribe or change their subscriber details at any time.
My personal feeling on some of these legislative measures is that they generally ignore the fact that some people cannot be trusted with their own email address and should probably stop filling out forms.
Other than that, if you're a responsible marketer who treats your list well, then you don't tend to get a lot of unsubscribes, or people writing you to say something silly like, "stop spamming me".
If anything, you'll get something like, "hey I'm only unsubscribing because my other address gets these messages too."
On a side note, isn't it amusing how some subscribers will take in all the free content you can send, but the second you offer them something to buy, suddenly you've spammed them?
All that said, even your list automation should include confirmation messages when moving subs from one to the next. I agree with the good netiquette aspect, but I'm not sure we need to legislate that sort of thing, not even in your country 
11:21 pm
August 27, 2011
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Good points Steve - especially about those who want everything for free and then "cry spam" once you actually make an offer for something...
I just realized now that another big aspect of CASL that we haven't touched on - is that you cannot email someone unless you have their permission in advance. This is something that went into effect July 1st - and it has a BIG impact on prospecting clients/customers.
In my mind - this makes permission based/inbound/attractive/magnetic (or whatever you want to call it) marketing more important than ever.
Music examples aren't quite as clear cut as the business to business space, however...
If you were in the position to have a booking agent's email for instance, and they didn't have it listed on their website with a message indicating that they welcome email inquiries - then you wouldn't be able to send them a cold email; you can't email someone asking them permission to send them an email.
It's sort of like going out on a first date and saying, "do you mind if I do this?" and kissing your date and then waiting to see if they object afterwards...
9:05 pm
June 7, 2011
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If someone posts their contact information you do have the permission to contact them, legally. But you can't legally then go and add their email address to a bulk email list and start mailing them. There is a difference between bulk email and individual emails from what my lawyer once told me.
Having trouble with your marketing? Wish you could have an experienced direct-to-fan marketing expert look over your actual campaigns, music, or content and offer feedback? Or perhaps you’re just looking for a little one-on-one assistance so you can ask questions that pertain to your specific goals and get a second, more experienced, perspective? Click here to book a session with me now.
5:10 am
July 3, 2018
OfflineHey guys,
I'm glad this came up on here because it's exactly what I've been worried about. I heard about it on my day job (working for a private apartment company) and heard about the insane fines. I'm not even through MMM 4.0 yet and plan to get through MMM 5.0 too but I am currently doing a small T-shirt fundraiser to celebrate the release of the demo cut of my first album. Do these laws apply to crowdfunding/fundraising campaigns? And if someone gave you their email personally but before they knew you were ever going to ask for a sale/donation from them, does it apply? I'm still learning the smart and lean way to build my email list with paid advertising but as I go through the MMM courses and for this little t-shirt campaign I'm using all the emails I've come across in my personal life as well as Facebook and Instagram messages. People message me on ig all the time asking for a sale so I thought it was the norm and legal.
Everyone seems really nonchalant about it on this forum but it's taken so seriously at my job. Is it because we are small businesses? Are small businesses protected in any way or given more leanience?
Any advice or help is much appreciated. I'd hate to get sued just when I'm starting to have some hope again in my music career. lol.
Best,
Jordan
5:46 am
August 27, 2011
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If you want to cover your ass, don't send unsolicited email especially in "bulk". If you have a correspondence for someone and you ask them if it's okay in a personal email...that should be okay.
What's not okay is just blasting anyone/everyone because you happen to have their email address. I've had a fellow parent blast myself and all the other parents in my son's class because she was promoting an art show or something - that's a great way to get an instant negative response.
Had she asked in advance I'm sure she would've gotten much farther.
Be upfront about the email collection. If you're giving anything away for "free" with an email sign up...but you intend to send email newsletters on a regular basis...say that upfront and say they can unsubscribe at any time via a link at the bottom of the email etc. That way they know they at least have the option.
If anything feels even remotely like a "bait and switch" - don't do it.
This goes beyond CASL, as there is now the GDPR legislation as well that is borderline ridiculous to uphold.
Just my two cents.
11:31 am
July 3, 2018
OfflineIt is hard to know just how careful one needs to be. I think it's also the tone the email/message has. I've been putting a little note at the end of my messages that tells people they can request to be taken off my list and I won't contact them again. So far only one person has requested that and he was really nice about it. So I think in fact it goes back to writing or copy and the tone and rapport (or lack there of) that it supports. On the other hand, there might just be people out there who hear about the hefty fines, think the money will go to them, so they "cry spam" on the drop of a dime. I hope more attention is paid to this issue and maybe a podcast episode might be good on it. Because if what some of the folks are saying on here is true (you have to basically, ask to ask for a sale and tell everyone there will be asks in the future) it changes the MMM program to me. What I mean is that the "build a relationship" part before you ask for any sale may be now classified as illegal since if you say you are collecting emails to give away a free song but then turn around and down the road ask for a sale the person can say this is illegal because I thought I was signing up for something free only. It's an holiday here and I'm busy working away but I'm curious to see what John and Steve say when they hop back on after the holiday is over.
Thanks all.
12:21 pm
August 27, 2011
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Jordan K. Clarke said
I hope more attention is paid to this issue and maybe a podcast episode might be good on it. Because if what some of the folks are saying on here is true (you have to basically, ask to ask for a sale and tell everyone there will be asks in the future) it changes the MMM program to me. What I mean is that the "build a relationship" part before you ask for any sale may be now classified as illegal since if you say you are collecting emails to give away a free song but then turn around and down the road ask for a sale the person can say this is illegal because I thought I was signing up for something free only. It's an holiday here and I'm busy working away but I'm curious to see what John and Steve say when they hop back on after the holiday is over.Thanks all.
CASL has been in effect for the better part of a decade and GDPR also for over 3 years - if there was a significant issue with email marketing the way John teaches it in MMM, it would've come up by now.
American marketers I speak to seem to have very little concern for these email restrictions, they may not explicitly say that more emails will come and haven't had any big problems with it.
I lean more towards transparency as my approach, that's just the way I'm wired and I also oversee a database of 260K+ active contacts around the world for a company based in the UK...it's my job to protect that asset.
At the end of the day, these laws are in place to target the deliberate spammers and con artists, not musicians who are marketing their music and attempting to build an audience. It's perfectly okay to transition from a free offer to a paid one as long as you're still dealing with your music. They showed interest in your music by opting in.
It would be wrong if you transitioned to (on the mild side) another genre of music completely....like instrumental sci-fi sound tracks or something when you were offering country music. On the extreme side (bait and switch) it's offering free music on the front end and then spamming people with viagra, poker, porn or some time share opportunity....that is where it's clear that any email being collected was for nefarious purposes, or they are selling contacts to shady online scammers.
In my opinion, it's those bait and switch opportunities that email laws like CASL and GDPR are trying to address.
9:33 am
June 7, 2011
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Hey Jordan,
I think Michael said it all pretty well in the last post. The GDPR rules are very real, but at the same time, I don't think that musicians (or anyone) doing the kind of marketing we are doing needs to be overly concerned. You need to have GDPR compliant privacy policy on your site, and you need to have a way for people to opt out of sharing their information, but the info we are keeping is extremely limited. It's all email related and stored in Aweber, or your payment processor, both of which are already GDPR compliant. I've read the reports of fines, but in every case they were companies with much more personal information and fairly egregious violations. It's also almost impossible to enforce outside of Europe.
I need to stress that I am not a lawyer, or qualified to give legal advice, but that is how the majority of us operate and I'm yet to hear of a single issue. Be smart, follow the law, don't do shady things, disclose your practices, and my feeling is you will be fine.
Having trouble with your marketing? Wish you could have an experienced direct-to-fan marketing expert look over your actual campaigns, music, or content and offer feedback? Or perhaps you’re just looking for a little one-on-one assistance so you can ask questions that pertain to your specific goals and get a second, more experienced, perspective? Click here to book a session with me now.
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