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Karen Grace said
Hello again. The river monsters said they would release me to write one MMM message today, so here goes ....

Thinking about the patreon style club (and have contacted Scott James). Are there any do's and don't's to making this a profitable offer?

This is what I'm thinking:

- members only tracks

- be part of choosing which songs will be on my next album.

- members only vidoes

- members only blog posts

-15% off merchandise that comes out this year

Awesome. No real does and don't as it's all mostly uncharted territory. But my basic feeling is that one would do best to offer three tears and increase the quality of the "access" with each tear. So the first tear could be something like $1 per month or something on par with an album, but that just gets you the digital download. The second tier would be a little bit more money (say $3/month) but get you additional access such as interviews about each track and videos. The third tier could get you all of the above plus live online concerts and chats, and so on. The principles are really the same as Patreon. You're just simplifying it a bit. Just make sure what you are offering is something your fans will actually want.

One thing you might consider before spending a ton of money and time on this is to just get your funnel going and optimized. From there you can easily extrapolate the potential earnings of an upsell. I tend to fire first and aim later. Works better in my experience.

I'm wanting to make sure this is part of the upsell 'logic' of having just bought an album and it making sense to have more of similar. Obviously there are different formats going on here- not just tracks. But am I right in thinking that the above ideas are along the right lines, as you get more music, and extra stuff too ? Is there anything I'm obviously missing in these ideas?

I think you want to position this as a "thanks for buying the album" now come along for the ride" kind of a thing. With a healthy dose of "As independent artists we need this kind of support because the music business has changed".

I'm also wondering whether for some people they just wouldn't be ready to sign up for a patreon type thing until they'd heard the album. Presumably there's no harm in offering it as an upsell, and then if they don't take me up on it, it wouldn't be too inappropriate to send another email alerting them to that possibilty 2 weeks down the line?

It is possible that this will be too much of an ask for some. I would add a customer funnel to your system that gave new customers a week or so of a break and then followed up to try and sell the upsell. Much like the main funnel, but now you are selling the membership site. You could go a little lighter on the bonding blog post stuff, and replace that with entertaining content (such as videos) that they can find in the members area. Then go in with the LTO like always.

I also wanted to ask whether you've seen people have success with this specifically as an upsell, or is it that you believe that it will work? Just out of interest- hope you don't mind me asking. It feels like quite a massive step to make, running with this, in a way.

I have definitely had students report success, but it's more theory than proven at this stage. I don't have data on it. However, the principles are the same as Patreon, and that is proven. So I feel confident in the approach. This is something I will be diving into a lot more this month.

It does sound like it might be a big step for you. You may want to throw something together quickly and cheaply and adjust later.

Thank you,

Karen

P.S. I had 2 sales come through today - wohoo!

P.P.S. I told one of London's most reputable promoters about MMM today. He's a musician and knows loads of musicians, so hopefully he'll spread the love... He's called Theo Bard if you hear from him.

Congrats on the sales. That's awesome. And thanks for spreading the word 🙂

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September 24, 2018
7:09 pm

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Thanks for all this John- super helpful in the process of mulling all this over ...

Yes I also thought it would be good to get my funnel optimised first, mostly because I find it hard to think about too many things at once!

I don't think I'm far off. I've had 5 sales out of 100 or so subs I've acquired since having done quite a lot of tweaking of everything - writing/ visuals etc. And there's still 30 of them that haven't completed the funnel so maybe I'll get some more sales. So I feel like my post- squeeze page part of the funnel is doing pretty good. And the squeeze page converted at 21% so nearly there.

I got the Regina audience down to roughly $2 per sub... But it looks like the Florence audience will get lower than that- maybe even around the ideal $1 mark.

I'm about to run ads to Florence's audience again. Just wanted to ask about gender and price though. So far with her audience I only got 3 male subs, compared to 15 female subs. The male subs were roughly 1.5 times as expensive. Which is a bit of a bummer as it would feel weird to build a female only audience. So I had an idea to do seperate male and female ad sets/ads for this audience, leading to seperate squeeze pages. And experiment with different elements on my squeeze pages as maybe different images/ text will work differently for men and women. It's not ideal, as with location and age demographics, the audience boils down to 200,000. About 70K of them are men, which is small but I reckon I could get enough subs to still go for conversions.

I'm guessing this issue comes up quite a lot where one gender is cheaper than the other- what is your advice in this situation generally? Perhaps the price gap is false as at the end of the day, a total of 18 subs isn't much data to go on really...

Thanks,

Karen

September 25, 2018
11:31 pm

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In terms of your conversion numbers... Those all sound pretty good. Average sales conversion rate is 4 - 6%. So 5 is right in range. if one more comes in then all the better. Keep in mind you will always pick up at least some additional sales from those non buyers on future promotions. Sometimes the timing just isn't right for people. Plus there is word of mouth, live shows, etc.

18 subs still really isn't that much, but my hunch is that it will probably hold in this case. Gender unbalances like that are common with many artists. Normally I just go where the numbers take me, as it's hard enough to create one successful audience, let alone drilling into the ones that are harder work to optimize them. However, I applaud anyone who wants to try it.

Good luck with whichever approach you take.

September 30, 2018
6:22 pm

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Thanks for the above reply.

Another question re: patreon/ VIP club section:

I'm talking to a web developer about setting it up (Scott didn't reply so I'm lining someone else up.) He's talking about using Gravity forms.

I'm thinking through what to communicate to him about what I want, and wanted to run it by you if that's OK. How does the below sound?:

- 2 'VIP club' squeeze pages- one 'soft' visible on my website. And one 'hard' with a countdown dynamite LTO.

- Paypal buttons for payment.

- 'Receipt' page including 'money back guarantee'

- 'Thank you' page.

- Aweber integration so that when someone lands on the thank you page, they get an email with their password to the members area.

Members area: Just one page to start off, with a welcome at the top, and 3 sections for videos, blog posts and tracks, as you scroll down....

Is there anything else I haven't thought of?

Also, at some point in our discussion about this, you suggested a mini sales funnel leading up to a LTO offer for this with videos etc. If I do this (which I think I will), I'm aware it's not strictly an upsell anymore with all the related step 1 thank you pages which you explained so helpfully just before your kidnapping (but think you might have had more to say !?) ...

So I'm now just wanting to double check again that building my own VIP section is still defintely the way forward (as opposed to using Patreon), since all the issues with the various thank you pages and tagging people according to whether they've taken up the upsell aren't there now. As before, I'm totally up for getting my own one built- just wanting to totally understand why. My understanding is that this is still the best way forward, because in the future it will be easier to organise everything/ tag people into Aweber lists who have bought various things ? Is that right?

Big thanks,

Karen

September 30, 2018
7:01 pm

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PS I'm thinking about doing tiers but I might start really simple with just one tier...

October 2, 2018
3:14 am

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Karen Grace said
Thanks for the above reply.

Another question re: patreon/ VIP club section:

I'm talking to a web developer about setting it up (Scott didn't reply so I'm lining someone else up.) He's talking about using Gravity forms.

Sorry to hear Scott didn't reply to you. I'm surprised. I find him to be extremely reliable. But if you have someone you are happy with that is all that matters. Gravity forms is not how I would do it at all. But I'm sure it could be done that way. I would personally use a membership plugin. But again, to each their own.

I'm thinking through what to communicate to him about what I want, and wanted to run it by you if that's OK. How does the below sound?:

- 2 'VIP club' squeeze pages- one 'soft' visible on my website. And one 'hard' with a countdown dynamite LTO.

- Paypal buttons for payment.

- 'Receipt' page including 'money back guarantee'

- 'Thank you' page.

- Aweber integration so that when someone lands on the thank you page, they get an email with their password to the members area.

I'm not following a lot of that. I don't understand the need for VIP squeeze pages or squeeze pages with LTO plugins. I don't know what a receipt page is or why the guarantee would be there. I also wouldn't deliver passwords via aweber because you will need some advanced integrations and probably coding in order to deliver unique passwords to members via aweber. However, most membership plugins do all of this for you.

I would personally set everything up just like standard offer. Simply use a sales page to pitch the offer and then redirect to the membership sign up form after ordering. Integrate with aweber to get them on the member list. Each membership plugin is differnet so I can't really give specific instructions there.

Members area: Just one page to start off, with a welcome at the top, and 3 sections for videos, blog posts and tracks, as you scroll down....

Is there anything else I haven't thought of?

To my mind, the main draw of a members area is the music. After that video and live engagement stuff. Blog posts are a distant third, but still something that makes sense.

Also, at some point in our discussion about this, you suggested a mini sales funnel leading up to a LTO offer for this with videos etc. If I do this (which I think I will), I'm aware it's not strictly an upsell anymore with all the related step 1 thank you pages which you explained so helpfully just before your kidnapping (but think you might have had more to say !?) ...

I was done. Cutting myself off mid conversation was the joke.

So I'm now just wanting to double check again that building my own VIP section is still defintely the way forward (as opposed to using Patreon), since all the issues with the various thank you pages and tagging people according to whether they've taken up the upsell aren't there now. As before, I'm totally up for getting my own one built- just wanting to totally understand why. My understanding is that this is still the best way forward, because in the future it will be easier to organise everything/ tag people into Aweber lists who have bought various things ? Is that right?

Big thanks,

Karen

One can't ever say something is "definitely the best way" as everyone is different, as are their audiences. But I do believe that we will be seeing more and more of a shift towards access models like Patreon. The reason to do one yourself is not specifically because of the tagging issues. The tagging issues were just the issues because you want to offer this as an upsell. You can also just run a Patreon campaign as a stand alone promotion a little later in the funnel and then the tags are not an issue at all.

The biggest reason to do this is because you have more control on all fronts. You make more money (Patreon takes a nice chunk), you can control what people see and the way things are laid out, and, as mentioned, because it integrates with your entire system.

In terms of tiers... it's up to you. I personally would start with at least two because you will have people willing to pay more. But don't think about it like "what else can I add to charge more". Think of it like "What would make for a really cool membership site for an indie artist" then just pare that down for your cheaper option. Even if it's just $1/month vs $3/month. That didderence is huge by the end of the year.

And if you are using Paypal, look into Micro payments: https://www.paypal.com/uk/weba.....ropayments That will save you a lot.

Hope that helps.

October 2, 2018
11:21 pm

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Hi John,

Thanks for your response- still getting my head around this, so thanks for being up for talking through the specifics as I think it will help me a lot when I talk to the web person. I'm not entirely sure how much I will need to spell out to them these details, but I figure it's good I understand the basics. I'm not sure I always use the right terms for things so apologies for any wires crossed in the above message ! ...

The reason I thought I needed to do two pages (one with an LTO plugin) is because in your message of 23rd September (above) you suggested to go in with an LTO at the end of a mini customer's sales funnel leading to a ptich for this, which strikes me as a good idea. Would that not mean setting up a sales page with countdown dynamite? And then have another one that's there on the website should people want to join of their own accord, outside the LTO? (Similar to the 2 album sales pages from MMM?)

Thanks for explaing more of your thoughts around Patreon/vs having your own thing. Those are the kind of things I thought you might have been about to say in your 19th sept message, the very first time you were cut off (not the joke one, which I eventually sent an extremely witty response to, demonstrating my high level of joke appreciation ;). ) Ah, the joys of black and white communication.

Scott didn't respond but I'm wondering whether my message got to him, as I used his contact form on his website and I know from my own experience of those that messages don't always get to me. Would you mind asking him if it's OK for me to have his email so I can check he definitely isn't interested in the work? I'm talking to a couple of people about this but because I'm not especially knowledgable about any of this stuff it's hard for me to know whether I'm choosing the right people for the job so I'd rather go with the safer bet (Scott) if at all possible!

Thank you.

Karen

October 3, 2018
9:11 am

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Karen Grace said
Hi John,

Thanks for your response- still getting my head around this, so thanks for being up for talking through the specifics as I think it will help me a lot when I talk to the web person. I'm not entirely sure how much I will need to spell out to them these details, but I figure it's good I understand the basics. I'm not sure I always use the right terms for things so apologies for any wires crossed in the above message ! ...

The reason I thought I needed to do two pages (one with an LTO plugin) is because in your message of 23rd September (above) you suggested to go in with an LTO at the end of a mini customer's sales funnel leading to a ptich for this, which strikes me as a good idea. Would that not mean setting up a sales page with countdown dynamite? And then have another one that's there on the website should people want to join of their own accord, outside the LTO? (Similar to the 2 album sales pages from MMM?)

You had said "squeeze pages" which is what confused me. Yes, you would need a sales page and an LTO timer is not a good idea.

Thanks for explaing more of your thoughts around Patreon/vs having your own thing. Those are the kind of things I thought you might have been about to say in your 19th sept message, the very first time you were cut off (not the joke one, which I eventually sent an extremely witty response to, demonstrating my high level of joke appreciation ;). ) Ah, the joys of black and white communication.

Ah, yes. I forgot that the initial message did get cut off naturally, before you eventually sent an extremely witty response to, demonstrating my high level of joke appreciation. I have no idea what I was running on about at this stage.

Scott didn't respond but I'm wondering whether my message got to him, as I used his contact form on his website and I know from my own experience of those that messages don't always get to me. Would you mind asking him if it's OK for me to have his email so I can check he definitely isn't interested in the work? I'm talking to a couple of people about this but because I'm not especially knowledgable about any of this stuff it's hard for me to know whether I'm choosing the right people for the job so I'd rather go with the safer bet (Scott) if at all possible!

Thank you.

Karen

I just sent scott a message asking if he wants the work. I also gave him your email. He may contact you, but he will likely just tell me whether he wants it or not and I'll post back with the info and his contact should he want the work. He would be the guy if he is available, because he knows this stuff far better than anyone else you will find. He created the MMM theme.

Cheers.

October 4, 2018
3:12 am

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Thanks very much for contacting Scott, and thanks for your thoughts.

I'm gonna assume from the context that you meant an LTO timer is not a bad idea, instead of not a good idea... I know you like to switch things round down in NZ- like that crazy day and night switcheroo thing you have going on.

Karen

October 4, 2018
1:49 pm

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