Hi Karen,

If you are asking if turning the confirmed opt in from on to off to on again, could hurt open rates, I would imagine it's possible. But most likely only if you are having actual issues with your open rates overall. So long as you practice good list management and delete people who are not opening emails for years on end (or ever), then I think you should be fine. But aweber will be able to guide you better on that.

That said, apply a little common sense and know that aweber (like any company) is likely going to take the opportunity to shift the blame for any problems you are experiencing back on you, if you let them. Bottom line is that I, and MANY people have shifted opt in status without any noticeable problems.

Hi Karen,

What is giving you the impression that you have a problem?

I clean m,y list about once a year, and I create a segment of people that have been on my list for more than a year AND have not opened anything for a year. I send a view emails telling them they are about to be deleted, and then delete whoever doesn't open any of those. It's hard to do but it can save you a lot of money. 

Before I delete I download and then upload to my FB custom audiences though.

I often still use the same message you attached, but sometimes I tweak it. No hard rule there, I just randomly tweak things all the time.

Karen Grace said
Hi John,

Thanks for the info re: the opt in message.

My problem is that in my recent campaigns, I've only had about 50% confirmed opt ins. Which has surprised me because people have been very engaged on facebook commenting on my video ad etc. Obviously I don't know if these are the same people, but in general it has surprised me that so many people bother putting their email address in without confirming.

Ok, yeah, 50% is far too low. But that doesn't indicate a delivery problem. Are you by chance tracking people as subscribers on the "step one" thank you page, rather than on the "confirmation" thank you page that they go to after confirming? If so, it sounds like FB's algorithm is just doing such a good job of cloning your audience that it is sending you the low hanging fruit, when it comes to subscribers. And the low hanging fruit are the people that are most likely to hand over their email address because it's an email address they don't check or care about. I've seen that happen before. You want to have your conversion goal set to only count people who confirm.

Thinking back on my campaigns over the last year (not that there have been many), I'm pretty sure this has been the case ever since I did one campaign where I turned the confirmed opt-in off for quite a while, not realising this wasn't a great idea. And since then I have been using lookalike audiences so perhaps this is the culprit ?

Do subscriber lookalike audiences automatically update from the thanks page as more people subscribe ? Is that how the facebook pixel works ?

If your custom audience is based on a list you updated then it won't automatically update without the use of an app like zapier. If the lookalike is based on people who land on the thank you page (hopefully the confirmation page) then t will automatically update, but older leads will drop off as well as they fall outside of the 180 day date range, or whatever you have it set to.

In that case, perhaps facebook was still going for people who are not likely to confirm (fake email addresses etc?) even though I had turned my confirmed opt-in back on ?

And if this is the case, how often does the fb lookalike update- is it a continuous thing?

When you say 'Before I delete I download and then upload to my FB custom audiences though', do you do this so you can exclude the unactive subscribers from future campaigns, or why do you do this? 

No, I do this s I can still target them with ads, as I still perceive them to be valuable.

In my most recent campaign, I used a video view lookalike audience though, and I had the same issue with around 50% opt-in rates ... so I'm confused about that ... that audience was only based on about 150 or so people, that had watched 75% of a video... so perhaps it's possible that there were lots of the kind of people who don't confirm the opt-in in that audience ?

Lastly, Aweber suggested setting up a DKIM and SPF record with my host (whatever that means) and I'm not sure if this will help on this issue (I was asking them loads of different questions on deliverabiltiy.) I will ask you about this in the other email thread as if you think this will help, I'll ask if I can pay Steve to do this.

Thanks for your thoughts on this.

Karen  

For something like a DKIM and SPF record, you would want to talk to your host and see if they can help. But in my opinion, you should not have to do that. Again, it does not sound like a deliveerability issue from what you've told me.

What is your open rate on your average broadcast? What are the open rates in your funnel?

Karen Grace said
Hi John, thanks for this.

OK deep breath. I've forgotten a fair bit about the MMM training - when I did it there were so many terms that were a foreign language to me, as a result, I think there was a lot I also didn't absorb the meaning of. 

It sounds likely that I'm tracking people from the thank you page, not the confirmation page, because I remember when I did the training, your instruction at the time was to switch confirmed opt-in off (I turned it on at some point later down the line). I also remember being super confused by that part of the training. I'm still a little confused by terms. Can I just double check - is the 'confirmation' thank you page you mention above the same as the success page ? This is mine:

https://www.karengracemusic.net/success

I just signed up to your list so I could say for sure...

https://www.karengracemusic.net/thanks/ is the page people get taken to after the submit. Your step 1 thank you page.

https://www.karengracemusic.net/success/ is your confirmation page. It is this page that you want to use as your conversion goal. Using the first one could effectively favour people who don't confirm, and result in Facebook targeting more people just like them.

I also looked at the language in your confirmation email and I think there is a little too much language there. 

"I send out emails with content such as videos about once a month - sometimes more often if something exciting is happening, (album promotion etc.)" not only pushed the confirmation button down so I need to scroll more, it also scares me a little because it reminds me that I'm going to have to content with a bunch of emails. I would remove that and cut to the chase. You can tell them that on the confirmation page if you want. That could be a factor as well.

I also notice that I/m using the same succuess page link for when people get a free download, as when people buy my album. Is that right ? Should I have set up 2 seperate ones?

You want separate ones. Otherwise you can't track sales.

I Regarding the conversion goal, I can't seem to find where that is in the facebook business manager. Or where the info on that is, in MMM 4.0. Could you point me to that, or explain how to change it here - thanks.

It's in the same place it always was, but FB has changed the skin. I made this video for you to show you rather than confuse you with a long written explanation: https://www.mmmanifesto.com/in.....nversions/

Re: lookalike audiences, when you say 'If your custom audience is based on a list you updated then it won’t automatically update', I think you man a list I uploaded (not updated) right? I do seem to remember uploading a list from a csv file. I followed the training in the 2019 visemann tutorials.  

Yes, sorry, if I said update then that's a typo. I list won't update automatically unless you add more subscribers or set up an automated updating path with something like Zapier. I typically do both. I upload once every 6 months and also have a custom audience based on people who have landed on the confirmation page in the last 6 months. That still means creating two lookalike audiences, but it makes things easier when trying to target or exclude subscribers.

I seem to remember you once saying it's good to do a combination of both uploading the csv list and using the confirmation/success page somehow, to keep it automatic without the older leads falling off ? - my memory is vague on this though. Do you know what I'm talking about ? I'm going to create a fresh lookalike audience now that I have more subscribers (should I delete inactive ones first or is it OK to create a lookalike with them in the mix ?)

My last 2 broadcast open rates were 22.8% opened (8.4% clicked) and 32.9% opened (11.9% clicked.) I believe that is healthy ? 

Yeah, 32% is totally healthy for a broadcast. 22% is just kind of ok. But any list will have ups and downs. The fact that even one of your emails got 32% means it's doing fine and is further evidence that you don't have a delivery issue.

Regarding my recent funnel, the first message has 58% open which isn't good. This would be explained by a lot of people putting in emails they don't really check though right ? The second email I sent is 44% opened and 18% clicked. I haven't sent more emails yet in that funnel as I'm in the middle of a lockdown experiment which has taken longer than I planned, lol ! I think I'm going to complete that process with a couple of broadcasts. My recent strategy has been a bit experimental (arse over tit), but I've enjoyed it much more as people are engaging so much more these days. It's keeping me sane as I tackle this freaking technical headspin.

Thanks as always.

Karen  

Correct, if only 58% of people are opening the download email then that's too low. But I think this likely has to do with the issues we've already outlined with your optimization. The second email being at 44% is actually pretty good because it means that 76% f the people who even opened the first email were interested enough to open the second email. That's a good ratio and speaks to the effectiveness of the targeting and the music, despite the lack luster open rates on the first email. 18% click on teh second email is also good.

Glad to hear engagement is up and you're enjoying it.

Talk soon.

Karen Grace said
Hi John,

Thanks for creating that video. It seems we've found my culprit. The conversion goal I set up way back was indeed set up for the 'thanks page' which you refer to as step 1 thanks page (see attached.)

I just want to get absolute clarity on a few things related to this - I have found this all really confusing, and this little motherfucker will have cost me a lot of money, so I want to make doubly sure of everything, before I start to really ramp up my advertising etc.

- I don't seem to have a custom conversion set up in my business account at all. So I guess facebook has been using the custom conversion from my old 'karen grace music' account that I set up following the MMM training, even though I've been using my business account ? (I seem to have 3 accounts: two for 'karen grace music' (my business one which I use these days, and my old 'karen grace music' one), and one personal ad account, which I don't really understand as I didn't know you could do ads from your personal page.)

- are there any other issues I should be aware of - things I haven't updated since using my business account etc ?

I'm glad we spotted that. It's progress at the very least 🙂

You are not alone in your confusion. Why Facebook doesn't just give everyone a single account is beyond me. And like you, I also have a third account and I don't even know where it came from. And I do this for a living! Facebook is super confusing in a few areas, and for no apparent reason at times. Worse still, the change things constantly, and often with no explanation or warning.

It doesn't really matter which account you use, so long as you use the pixel from the same account you are setting up your ads in, and you set up your audiences and conversion goals in the same account as well. While there are some things you can cross access, I wouldn't. Mainly because there are some things you can't.

The only real thing to be aware of is that you can't upload a custom audience to a non business account, so you should use the business account.

- So as I understand it, I now need to set up an entirely new custom conversion, with url = success page, within my business account, and then choose that event at the ad set level, when doing ads- right ? I should probably just delete the old custom conversion to avoid future confusion right ?

Correct. You don't need to delete the old one as you won't be able to access it from a different account. Having teh data might still be valuable.

- Regarding my pixel, I set it up a long time ago following the training- do I need to update anything there, considering I now use the business account ? Do I assume everything is in order there? 

Just make sure you have the right pixel on your site.

- Regarding your video, just a little feedback. I'm pretty sure I understand it, but for anyone else you share it with, it still seems confusing to me that your 'success' page has a 'thanks' url. Perhaps this is because I did the training a couple of years ago, but I think there may be others who's step-1 thank you page simply has a 'thanks' url, and this is the whole crux of this confusion. If someone wasn't sifting through this information, they could so easily put in their 'thanks url', without realising this was their 'step one' thank you page, and then unknowingly experience all the related issues that I've been experiencing. Perhaps this won't be an issue for others who have done the training recently, but for some reason I just have the 'thanks' url for my 'step 1-thanks' page, and I'm pretty sure it's because that was what it was called when I did the training. Hope this makes sense, and perhaps it is valuable feedback ?  

In teh course I teach people to create a "thanks" page and a "confirmation" page. My feeling is that this is clear. My apologies if not. You can name it anything you want. 

Karen Grace said
Thanks for the thoughts re: my confirmed opt in message/ confirmation page. Yes I'm weighing all this up and talking to Aweber about it too. I think I may go back to your way of doing it in terms of the written opt in process, as I'm mentioning 'sign up to my newsletter and get a free track' in my video ads and people seem to be responding to this straight forward approach - I think it's helpful that it's a human being saying it with a smile, and then the rest of the steps are kept simple. I was actually getting loads of people clicking through to the squeeze page from my video ad, for about 20 cents or less in recent campaigns, which I think is really good, so I feel like I'm hitting on something that works for me... 

As regards the seperate thanks page for album sales, so far I don't believe I have set anything up to track that - as in I don't think that is in the MMM training, is it? But I think I know now how I would set up a custom conversion to track who has bought my album. And I may eventually create custom audiences or lookalike audiences from that. Are they the reasons I would want to track album sales people ? Any other reason ?

To my knowledge this is in the training, yes. It's been a couple of years now since I created it, so I'd need to confirm but as far as I know it is, and no one else has reported that they have had a hard time tracking sales for a related reason, so I can't imagine it's not.

Regarding creating 2 custom audiences from success page people and also uploading csv files, in terms of actually using those audiences, I guess the csv list one will be bigger, so would you put that audience in one ad set, excluding the success page audience, and then have a separate ad set for success page people, to make sure everyone is included ? Just trying to get my head around the practical use of your way of doing it. 

Thanks,

Karen  

I typically just use the lookalike audience for the uploaded list. But you can create two if you want to test them. And just exclude the uploaded one from the landing page one. Or just keep it simple and use the one lookalike.

The biggest reason I create the two custom audiences is for easier, and more complete, targeting of my warm audiences when I promote new content and promotions. 

Karen Grace said
Hi John,

Thank you for your detailed responses.

When you say 'In the course I teach people to create a “thanks” page and a “confirmation” page. My feeling is that this is clear. My apologies if not. You can name it anything you want'. 

I guess my feedback is that for someone who is new to all this, as I was when I did the MMM course, I remember being seriously confused by that lesson. I get that you can name the url's whatever you like, but I do think it's confusing that in this case the 'confirmation' url was named 'thanks.' Only a detail, but it's a detail which has had quite a big impact, when that url finds it's way in the custom conversion... and I do wonder whether there might be other people in my position, who don't know that this is going on... ? 

The confirmation page is not names thanks. The confirmation page was named confirmation. The thank you page was named thanks. That said, in the marketing space in general, we all sort of just refer to any page that people get taken to after an order as a "thank you page". So I'm sure I often say that in the general sense, when referring to either one. I have not encountered much confusion from others around this. But I'll make note of it.

Having a very quick look at lesson 10 in MMM 4.0, the training is still to turn confirmed opt in off, in which case there is just one page, a 'thanks page'. But my understanding is that these days, with it being better practise to leave it on, people do so again, following your guidance after having completed the course ? And then the old thanks page is now the confirmation/success page, and a new thanks page (or step 1 thanks page) becomes part of the process ... and my understanding is that the custom conversion then needs to be tweaked with a new 'confirmation/success' url in it. But I never understood this. I would have known to do this if I had absorbed everything in great detail in terms of how facebook and the autoresponder work together, but honestly when going through the course, a lot of the time I was just following your instructions by rote, (and a lot of the time with my head spinning a little). 

My feeling is that it won't just be me who is/was confused by this, but I may be wrong.  

It is still the case that I recommend people starting with it off. This is generally the industry standard (when it comes to direct response marketing). But when people report low open rates on the first email I tell them to turn it on. As mentioned previously, turning confirmation off does not always cause the low open rate. It just depends on your audience and what the algorithm does in your specific case. For many, the ROI is still better with it off.

The confirmation page is always the confirmation page. When you turn on the confirmed opt in you need to add an additional thank you page.

I'm sorry to hear that after several years your head is spinning, but I have not heard many similar complaints about this step. In fact, I can't think of any, after thousands of people have gone through the program. But I could be forgetting a few. My feeling is that the steps are clear, as I just walk you through my actual process. But all of our minds work differently, and fair enough if that lesson did not connect the dots for you.